Child : It wasn't me, mum. Mummy : Well, it must have been Santa Claus, then Is the above dialog possible in English? Could the mother say the sentence in blue and could the child 12 years old understand it? Could he understand that the mother does not really believe it was Santa Claus? Or would the mother be more likely to say something like well, it can't have been Santa Claus instead.
It would be perfectly common in French and neighbouring countries, I think 's culture but a recent experience makes me doubt it is that common in anglophone countries. A related linguistic question Could the mother's line in blue be called ironical?
Even though she is mad at the boy, not in the mood for fun and doesn't mean to make anybody laugh. If it is not irony, then what would you call this figure of speech? Any input appreciated Jean-Michel. LV said:. Click to expand If you check the definition in the Oxford Concise Dictionary, there are many meanings - including "tragic irony" about Greek tragedy, I believe.
Some of those meanings do not particularly integrate the notion of humour. Regular "irony" does intend to have a "humorous effect", though, but it cannot be confused with "humour" as such. In some cases, "irony" is based on an antiphrasis; it may be funny to the person using it and not to the victim of it It's possible, and if delivered with a suitably ironic tone of voice, it would be understood.
However, you'd be much more likely to hear the mother say "Well, who was it then? Santa Claus? Yes - irony is simply when you deliberately say something opposite to what you mean, for an intended effect.
The effect can be humour, but also emphasis, or disbelief. Alanis Morisette wrote a song about ironical things. Hi Jean-Michel, I would call the statement in your example sarcasm, and it might be said just that way in AE.
Irony does not always imply humor. Thank you all kertek said:. Here Alanis was attempting, in her own special way, to document examples of another definition of irony: where there is an incongruity between what you would expect, and what actually occurs. I agree that sarcasm is a better term for this particular example, but also that irony does not have to involve humor at all.
To me, this might be a better example of irony that is not the least bit funny: Ironically, a reaction to the medication intended to save his life was what killed him. There are cultural differences at work here to, as to whether irony and ironic jokes are humorous and funny or not Irony and sarcasm are at the heart of British humour, which can be quite hard-hitting.
Everyone understands such remarks in the UK and, generally, thinks that they can be funny. Most people would tend to find, I think, your example of the drug killing the patient as potentially funny unless it happened to a next-of-kin or to one's beloved dog.
But Americans, in my experience, don't "do" irony and, quite frankly, don't always understand it. When they come across it, they tend to take it literally and commiserate: "Oh, how terrible! It becomes a private joke. Quite good against stress at times. Or so I felt when I was travelling around the USA and found that I could say the opposite of what I meant to an American in the most sarcastic of ways and they simply would take it literally.
Thanks for that interesting input, James Brandon. According to what I've been reading so far, there may also be cultural differences inside a country.
Especially one as huge as the US. James Brandon said:. I can't imagine why you'd think that When they come across it, they tend to take it literally and commiserate: "Oh, how terrible!
One of my favorite tricks is tell an obnoxious, obviously naive person, "You know, the word gullible isn't in the dictionary" Or so I felt when I was travelling around the USA and found that I could say the opposite of what I meant to an American in the most sarcastic of ways and they simply would take it literally. The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning. An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning.
A literary style employing such contrasts for humorous or rhetorical effect. Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs. James, I think I agree with you in general. That is not to say that all of us here are that way, of course. But to the point re: irony , as others have posted, not all irony is humorous.
I may be wrong but I get the impression that irony or sarcasm being less common practice in some parts of? You're bound to identify more easily what you're expecting. Hm, I'm afraid this is turning into a real cultural thread. Snowman75 Senior Member Sydney, Australia. Kelly B said:. You have to understand what makes something funny to many English-speaking people: surprise. The gold-winning swimmer drowned in his bathtub. A sad thing, indeed, but because of the surprise, we twisted Americans would laugh about it.
Comedians make us laugh by surprising us with the obvious: Jerry Seinfeld talks about why McDonalds feels the need to post how many hamburgers it has sold on its signs. He says, " Is it so the cows will just come into the restaurants and surrender? Irony, is about surprise, and for that reason, will often get a laugh no matter how cruel it may be. I would say 'sarcasm' is a potentially nasty and slightly aggressive form of 'irony'; there are many forms of 'humour', and 'irony' is a major component of many forms of 'humour' - but not all 'irony' is 'humour' as such, and many forms of 'humour' rely on other forms of expression eg slapstick comedy is not 'irony'.
As for Americans and America, and their understanding of 'humour', there is no doubt that American humour and humourists do exist, of course; also, there is no doubt that many or some Americans understand 'irony'. Culturally, America is not homogeneous, and yet, are there that many differences from one region or state to another?
The answer would be subjective. No doubt, the humour of a New Yorker may be quite different from that of a Californian. The person's ethnic background would also, no doubt, play a part.
If the country is too fragmented culturally, this may have a negative impact on humour by the way: there needs to be a cultural common ground for people to laugh at the same things To conclude and I have gone on a bit I would maintain that most ordinary Americans which does not mean all Americans do not 'do' or 'get' irony of the British or Australian kind. PS And Australians do irony and sarcasm as well as or better than Britons, that's for sure!
Outsider Senior Member Portuguese Portugal. I think I undersand where you're coming from, LV I, too, have often noticed that in English the word irony seems to usually refer to a type of paradoxical situation , whereas in my language it's mostly used as a synonym for "sarcastic statement ".
I would say 'sarcasm' is a potentially nasty and slightly aggressive form of 'irony'; there are many forms of 'humour', and 'irony' is a major component of many forms of 'humour' Sadly, sarcasm has become a very common tool for cheap laughs. Even when it is quite vicious. You have no idea how many Princess Di jokes I have seen.
Sarcasm and irony when properly used can be quite funny, I just think it is a bit overdone in the USA. America's Funniest Home Videos is a show that largely focuses on people getting hit in the crotch, running into a window, etc. That sarcasm is generally hurtful is, I think, a given; or else, it is not sarcasm but gentle irony Sarcasm is aimed at a particular person and is very direct - it is veiled criticism, very often. Irony or 'regular' humour are aimed at a situation, as it affects millions of people.
I think there is a difference, somehow. At best, they don't notice it at all; at worst, they notice it and take offence. In the UK, the boundaries are blurred and irony can be used with complete strangers, sometimes in fairly subtle ways, and no one is surprised, and everyone understands I don't know if I have explained properly and generalizations are always a bit silly, inevitably not that it has stopped me!
I will give an example of self-inflicted irony here in London: The driver, on a commuter train into London that is badly delayed but only stops at a few stations along the way known as "a fast train" , says: "I am sorry to announce that this fast-ish train has been delayed. Maybe that could happen in New York too. And he stressed the 'ish' in a deliberately sarcastic manner. It was excellent. Now I know why no one here 'gets' me. I live in the wrong country!
I've found that younger children don't understand sarcasm, so I cringe when I hear adults making snotty comments that the children just don't get and don't deserve, either. In my experience, sarcasm tends to be very, very individual and circumstancial, at least in the western U.
If you have not known a person long enough, it is hard to pick up on sarcastic cues. For example, in the original example, I would definitely call the mother's line sarcasm rather than irony. The background situation would probably be that the child is a bit of a compulsive liar, etc, etc. In , Saturday Night Live's satire of what happened in the [presidential] campaign became the conventional wisdom for what was going on in the campaign.
The Observer. The late-night talk and news satire is scheduled to return with new episodes in February. Los Angeles Times. As with satire, sarcasm depends on the listener or reader to be in on the joke.
Sarcasm is insincere speech. Your mom asks if you're excited to start cleaning the kitchen and you say, "Yeah, right," when you mean "Heck no. I've seen you in the market. You can lift hundred pound bags of flour," I snap at him. To distinguish irony from satire and sarcasm , remember that irony pertains to situations while satire and sarcasm are forms of expression.
People make satire and sarcasm happen. Irony is just there. Reserve irony for situations where there's a gap between reality and expectations, especially when such a gap is created for dramatic or humorous effect. Continue reading Irony employed in the service of mocking or attacking someone is sarcasm. Saying "Oh, you're soooo clever! Satire is a way of making fun of people by using silly or exaggerated language.
Politicians are easy targets for satire, especially when they're acting self-righteous or hypocritical.
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